UGC & Community | In Conversation w/Fallout: London

Listen along to this interview here:

ELIZABETH
So, what is Fallout: London? In your own words?

DEAN
Fallout: London is a DLC-sized mod – many people will say it’s probably like its own game, at this point.

ELIZABETH
It is!

DEAN
But it’s basically a game on top of a game. So we have changed Fallout 4, which was made by Bethesda, into a game that’s based in London. About the same level of quests, about the same size of map – I think ours is actually slightly larger – and yeah; it’s a community driven project that we started back in 2019.

It just recently released! And we’re getting lots of feedback from people, and they’re saying that it should be one of the series, so…

ELIZABETH
Amazing! And I wholeheartedly agree – personally, if Bethesda ever does finally get back to us and adopts it into the canon, that would be great! [Laughs]

DEAN
Yeah, that would be amazing.

If I’m honest – perfectly honest – I would actually just like to have a level of acknowledgement. It’s not unheard of, in the industry – it’s not an expectation that studios should reach out to their fans. But it would be nice, at this stage.

ELIZABETH
I mean, as you say, it’s not an expectation but it would be a nice cherry on top. Not just for Team FOLON and all the hundreds of volunteers, but for Bethesda as well; because, as we’re going to unpack, of just how much modding and UGC and community lends to the longevity of studios and their titles…

DEAN
So, a ‘mod’ stands for ‘modification.’ It doesn’t matter if it’s something as small as wanting to change an outfit’s colour, to maybe adding a new weapon, or vehicle – or doing what we did, where we’ve taken it to the Nth degree and basically turned the entirety of downtown Boston into London. So we’ve obviously changed many weapons, many cars, many outfits.

Doesn’t matter how small it is – if you ever edit something from the base game, you have modified it. So that, in a nutshell, is what a mod is. From the smallest thing, to the largest thing – which is what we’ve done!

ELIZABETH
A very succinct answer – I can tell you’ve had to rehearse that many times for journalists that have no idea what they’re talking about! [Laughs]

DEAN
[Laughs] I mean, that’s one of the great things about UGC in general. It opens up a lot of people that maybe are a bit more mainstream, and they’ll just sit down and play whatever they’re given. And they don’t realise the world – because it is a world – of modding; that they can go, “Oh, wow! I don’t have to play as Nate in Fallout 4! I can play as a green alien!”

That maybe makes them really enjoy that game a lot more, and that’s the advantage of mods. And that goes for anything across the spectrum. If you wanna change that car, and put your favourite car in and that makes your game better? That’s the wonder of a mod.

I feel one of the best things Fallout: London has done is basically being thrust into the media and going: “This is what a mod is. You should probably learn what mods are.” And we’ve been contacted by so many mainstream gamers who didn’t even know what a mod is, and they’ve been like, “Wow, this has really changed everything! I can do all this cool stuff? Amazing!”

And that means a lot to me, as someone that’s always modded and always been interested in video games. So to bring newer people into the scene is great.

ELIZABETH
Yeah, absolutely. I think with projects like this – and UGC and modding as an entire sub-sect of gaming – it really is about evening the playing field of players and creators. It’s that democratising of game design, and the ways that we engage with stories and games as a medium. Saying: “This is the vision that I have for this game; I can make it happen.”

And I think that is so sick!! That is what I love to see, and that’s what really drew me to modding as well. I didn’t get into making mods until very late, but I’ve been voicing mods for a while—

DEAN
[faux-surprise] Really, are you a voice actor?

ELIZABETH
[Laughing, sarcastic] Yes, I’m a voice actor, blah blah blaaahh…

DEAN
So Fallout 4 came out in 2015. And, yeah, they haven’t really done any large amounts of improvements. Now you could argue that, from a business standpoint, they released the Next-Gen Update, but that… didn’t go down so well.

So, in terms of what’s been keeping it alive this whole time, that’s been the community. And I think that community content is definitely the way forward for a lot of these industries. They wouldn’t even attempt a Next-Gen Update if communities and fans weren’t making things for that past decade. Like, why would you? At this point, you’d put all your focus into a new game.

It’s definitely the community and the mods that have kept that game alive, in my opinion. I mean, to bounce off the joke about you being everywhere in our game – genuinely, this is where the level of modding hits.

Many people think modding and UGC is very much a novice, amateur thing. And, yes, it basically is – but when you start working with people who’ve been doing this for such a long time, it’s almost like you become a Professional Amateur.

Where you’ve been modding for 10+ years, you’re gonna be good at your craft. And we’ve been working with – obviously yourself, someone who’s a bit more of a professional – and we’ve been working with people who’re brand new to voice acting. And when you have scenes where you’re literally playing one character talking to another character you’re playing and it sounds completely different? That’s fantastic.

In the end, we got just under 1000 applicants for voices. I mean, we were thinking we were going to get maybe a couple hundred, so to get that many was like woah…

ELIZABETH
I mean, it really shows how much the community wants to be involved in things that they care about. And that should put the onus on developers and studios to: A) support mods and UGC, in order to allow that creativity; and B) also make games that are conducive to wanting to get involved, if that makes sense?

DEAN
Yeah. I think the one thing we’ve done quite well – and this honestly wasn’t our intention, our intention was just to create a fun experience for the community – but we’ve been seeing a lot of YouTubers saying that it’s shown that [Fallout] can work outside of the US.

That’s the one takeaway that we’d love Bethesda to see, is that they can take a few more risks. They don’t always have to bring in the Brotherhood of Steel, it doesn’t always have to be the Enclave. Because we’ve seen it; we know what it is! And bearing in mind that we wait ten years for each Fallout game; when we then play it we’re like, “Oh, it’s the Brotherhood of Steel again…”

And it really lets down the community, because we’re excited for this new content, and then we get a rehashed version of something we’ve already played throughout our lifetimes. I definitely hope Todd, or whoever is in charge, will look at Fallout: London and be like: “Huh. We can take more risks. We can see different things.”

ELIZABETH
What you’re saying is very reminiscent of HBomberguy’s video essay on Fallout: New Vegas, and how that game is genius because it revolutionised so many expectations of what a Fallout game could be. And modding, by and large, shows all the things that modders want to see from the game that was lacking, that they took upon themselves to put in.

Something like Fallout: London, that has so much praise and so many eyes on it – and is such a gargantuan effort from people who clearly love the series so much, and want to share their point of view… Surely these are the ways for game studios to listen to their audience, up front. Engage with it physically, in the worldspace, and know what to implement into their games in future that they know people will want to see.

So I really hope Fallout: London does that!

DEAN
I think it’s a way to give your community an outlet where they can be creative. In the current world, a lot of people use games as a form of escapism. And, as much as people might enjoy the linear games – Call of Duty and the like, where you start in a level and have to work your way to the end – some people really enjoy the creative aspect.

It’s why you’ll see levels being created in Little Big Planet that’re really fun to go through, in Minecraft where you have these enormous houses and it’s almost like an art piece: it transcends games. And I feel like a lot of people will use that as a way to really feel creative, and just escape from the current world that we’re in.

And that harbors a community of creators, and I think that’s a really positive thing. Because a lot of people might not have access to go out and buy an easel and paint, but they can pick up Little Big Planet, they can pick up Fall Guys, and make a level. And then other people can see it! Because you might not have the opportunity to paint something on your wall and invite your friends round to look at it; but you can get them all in game to play.

I think that’s one of the best parts of modding, and UGC content in general.

ELIZABETH
That’s got me thinking about how we’ve had people building Bloodborne 1-to-1 in Minecraft; how long until we get Fallout: London in Minecraft? [Laughs]

DEAN
Well, we actually already have!

ELIZABETH
What?!!

DEAN
We used to have a guy on our PR team who loved Minecraft. Every time our 3D artists would create a car, he’d ask for the model. And we’d suddenly see it in Minecraft! It was awesome to see what he’d do, and he’d do a tutorial for all the bits he’d use to create it.

That’s what I mean! It’s a community of passionate people who like creating. We’ve created our art; he’s looked at it and then created his own form of art. That’s a really positive connection in the community, and that’s why I love those sorts of games that allow that.

DEAN
I think it started with – and this is showing my age – maybe the Sims 1.

ELIZABETH
One?! Wooooow, alright, grandpa…

DEAN
Because I remember the concept of a mod, back then, seemed very shady… You’d have ModTheSims, things like that, and it was this really shady looking website – because all websites looked shady, back in the day. And you were downloading this “new content” from this random website, like, “Oh, this is so naughty, what am I doing?” [Laughs]

And you’d put it in, and it’d be, like, a flowerpot – but you’d be sitting there feeling like Hacker Man! “Yeeaaahhh, look what I’ve got!!”

That probably planted the seed of realising I can edit any game, however I want, and be creative in my game. Tailor-make it how I want. And that is definitely what makes games have their longevity. And that was in a game that, at that time, wasn’t really promoting modding; [the Sims] then went on to promote modding, and now they’re relatively known for it.

I think that is one of the great things about games that have it innately built in. Because there are people that will wake up looking for nostalgia to hit, and they’ll go play one of the first Little Big Planet’s and create a level – and that’s great! The gate of entry is built in, and I really really like that.

Little Big Planet was one of the big first things of its kind, where it was like: “Wow, I don’t have to just play these regurgitation games. This allows me to do so much creativity with it.” I remember being in uni when it came out; maybe my grades weren’t doing so well, how can I escape? I’m gonna build a level.

Maybe that’s what led off into [Fallout: London], because I definitely got disenchanted with the linear gameplays. Having a chance to be creative, an outlet that I needed at that time… They hold a special place in my heart.

DEAN
So I think that’s what games that acknowledge the modding scene, and actually promote it, are really well equipped for creating. Things like Fall Guys, especially. Where they definitely have creation as part of the gaming element, it creates a really nice and welcoming community of people that are creative.

I think it creates this safe place that you can go, create amongst other people, rate each other’s work – and it’s great!

Bethesda tries. I don’t think they’ve quite hit the nail on the head yet. What sometimes happens in the modding scene, and we’ve seen this ourselves, is that particularly the Fallout  modding scene tends to develop cliques. And it can be quite toxic between them. I feel that maybe Bethesda need to work more with their community managers.

I know the cliquiness and toxicity isn’t ultimately down to Bethesda, but if you make it more welcoming – on your own platform – that will allow people to be creative and nice to each other.

You might notice that we developed most of Fallout: London through Discord. That’s a third party thing; that took us away from Bethesda. Now the Bethesda community manager has to use Discord to speak to us. We don’t have to engage with other modding teams, or Skyrim modding teams, and it very much becomes like our own echo chambers.

Whereas you compare that to games that have it built in – even things like The Sims – they have places where people can meet and talk about it. And they have harboured a great community when they’ve done this. I feel like that’s when it’s been done correctly, and that’s when identities form amongst them. You’ll have people that are known throughout the scene, and it’s just really nice and friendly.

DEAN
It needs to have a level of, I guess, Read Me’s or [guides] how to use it. This is something I remember Little Big Planet did well; it held your hand on how to create things. I feel that any of these systems need to have a level of documentation that goes with it. Either it’s built in and pops up on screen to say you can do this, this, this and this; or something where you can read it on their forums, and the like.

That’s something [Team FOLON] struggled with. We learned the hard way that it’s a steep learning curve. A lot of the documentation, at least for the Creation Engine, isn’t out there. And then when it was out there, for some reason they “updated” it – and then it’s been down for a year and a half where no-one can read it!

And everyone was like, “Just revert it.” And we were told no. Okay! I guess we just won’t read it anymore! So yeah, please don’t do that to your communities! Just give them documentation, because then they can actually work in your game.

ELIZABETH
Yeah, you just need those four hour long Darkfox YouTube videos on exactly how to do things.

DEAN
Oh, he was a G! Darkfox127 got me through Skyrim modding. Shoutout to them!

They don’t get many views, because it is a very niche thing, but we thank them in [the credits of] Fallout: London because… we wouldn’t have done it without them. And that’s what I mean by you build identities – because we’ve had people say, “How do we get involved?”

We say, “Go look at Darkfox.” Because they are people that are renowned in the modding scene for knowing everything. They know far more than I will ever know about modding, and yet they are small scale because of the niche.

But that’s what I love. I can message them, and because they’re human, they message back. That is what I love about the community.

DEAN
Now… I’ll have to explain this slightly, but they’re what we like to call a Goink Sesh…

ELIZABETH
[utterly perplexed] Oh…

DEAN
[holding back laughter] Now, a Goink Sesh stems from a meme of a monkey pushing a button on the screen, saying GOINK. Because, typically, we would be struggling throughout the day to solve something. And it would normally be – and I don’t know why! – around one in the morning, when we should’ve all gone to bed, when we’d start doing something.

Motive would kick in, and we’d all start trying to fix something. For example, the entire animated train system in Fallout: London? That probably started at 1am… [Laughs] And we just goink’d like that monkey on the screen, pushing buttons until it worked. And I think Sunny finally finished the skeleton of that at something like 1pm the next day.

ELIZABETH
Oh, my god… Sunny, go to BED!!

DEAN
That was it. It’s like: we’re gonna start at 1, then like 12 hours later we’re sitting there, like: “Cool, we got it. I’m going to sleep now.”

And it’d always be late. They were my favourite moments, because that’s when the creative juices were flowing, we were all sitting there, and time had become irrelevant. Sitting there with a bunch of other nerds, drinking all these energy drinks to solve an issue, and when you get it it’s DONE. Time for sleep.

I will always remember those moments.

DEAN
The best part of all of this was building up a huge community that told us what they want, what they expect, and what they enjoy. Now we’re gonna take all that knowledge and move it into our own indie studio.

We have ideas behind the scenes, and obviously we can’t go into them and what we plan to do moving forward, but we are looking at probably creating our own game. In what capacity, we’re not sure yet. But that has only been made possible by people who have donated to the team.

Because, at the end of the day, we’ve done all of the Fallout: London work for free – and it has to be free. And it actually cost us money. That’s something people don’t realise, is that modding costs actual money. Not just that, it also costs time.

ELIZABETH
So much time…!

DEAN
I’m not getting any younger! And when you think of how much money, if I’d worked a proper job and saved… How much money I would’ve had in comparison?

ELIZABETH
In five years, yeah. An astronomical difference.

DEAN
And so that has allowed us to springboard to create something which we otherwise wouldn’t have. And I feel like it’s up to us to capitalise on that.

We’ll see. I’d love to create another game that has our own IP to it, where we can fully create something. Because, as much as we love Bethesda and Fallout, there are times when we didn’t necessarily want to adhere to their lore and IP but we had to, to make it make sense. So that’s something we’re looking forward to – and I know Callum, our lead writer, especially is.

ELIZABETH
You can all do everything that you want, and I think that that’s such an exciting possibility for all of you. So… hell yeah! You’re doing the Modern Storyteller route!

DEAN
That’s the thing, as well. We know the people we want to work with again, and it’d be great to actually be able to say: “Hey, do you wanna be involved? We can actually pay you this time!” [Laughs]